Decoding Communication w/ Dan Freeman

Remmy Stourac (00:01)
Alright, welcome to the Serendipity Soundtrack, Episode 7 with Dan Freeman who is a relationship coach. So welcome to the show buddy.

Dan Freeman (00:10)
Thanks my man, thanks for having me. This is my second podcast ever and I'm kind of nervous.

Remmy Stourac (00:17)
Oh, unreal. Well, this is the playground of self-discovery, man. We're pumping color into the world. But to jump right into it as a relationship coach, you have a pretty damn good reason to basically be resentful of love itself. And I'd love to hear that story.

Dan Freeman (00:33)
Yeah, so I primarily, I help people with anxious attachment and feeling disconnected in their relationships. And both of those come through communication. And yeah, the reason, and I identify very much with anxious attachment style. That's been my MO for, since as long as I can remember. And yeah, I think that came from

When I was a kid I felt...

I had lots of friends, but I felt kind of lonely. I didn't feel like there was anybody I could really open up to and trust with like, with vulnerable, scary feelings. And yeah, we had a loving family, but we just didn't, I just didn't have that confidence or that trust. And so I ended up living quite insular on an emotional level. Like it was very hard for me to open up. And so I had troubles kind of trusting love.

And then my first few forays into romance all kind of confirm that mistrust. And it was especially highlighted by this one story I must've been 20 years old. And I think I was like the OG of being catfished. I'm pretty sure I was the first person ever to get catfished. This was before the even term was invented before the movie came out.

And yeah, I had met this woman online back in the day when we used Plenty of Fish. And we exchanged a few messages and then we added each other to MSN, which is what people

we exchanged a few messages on MSN, but then I ended up dating somebody in real life for a few months and we just stopped chatting and I kind of forgot about her. And then that relationship ended and I hopped back on MSN and I saw this cute girl on my list. And I was like, man, I don't remember her looking so good. And she had her Facebook page linked and she had 2000 photos and 300 friends.

She was supposed to be this Marine biologist and, um, yeah, I was like, damn, I hit the jackpot. And so I messaged her and we started chatting and it turns out she was awesome. And we would just exchange casual messages. And then eventually one thing led to another and we started talking all the time and it got to the point where very quickly where I would come home from work and the first thing I do is pop on Amazon messenger.

and talk to her like all night until I went to bed. And then that led to talking on the phone. And then that led to even her talking on the phone with some of my friends. I'd be out at the bar or hanging out with my buddies and she would call and they'd be like, let me talk to her, let me talk to her because they all heard about her. And this took place over a few months, maybe a better part of six months.

And then all of a sudden one day she was just gone. Just her, she wasn't responding to texts, she wasn't responding to calls and she wasn't responding to any messages. It was just black. And out of nowhere, this person was like the biggest part of my life. And then she was gone. And I was like distraught. I started messaging all her Facebook friends. I was like, what's going on? And...

This woman was like a huge catalyst for change in my life. This was the first time I really felt accepted and loved and really, I was able to really be open and express my full self. And I don't know if it was the safety of like that virtual distance or what, but somehow it allowed me to really open up. And in doing so, I was able to realize what I really wanted. And I realized I didn't want to party anymore. I didn't want to get blitzed all weekend, every weekend. And I didn't...

want to work in construction. And so I ended up quitting drinking and going back to school, largely because, mostly because of that relationship. And so this was like a huge, huge part of my life. And then all of a sudden she's just gone. And I'm a mess. And I messaged all our Facebook friends, nobody either got back to me or there was one guy that got back to me and he was like, I actually haven't met this girl in person. So I don't really know.

And that was like a little bit jarring, but I wasn't even a little bit skeptical. The fact that she could be fake was not even on my radar. It felt like such an impossible reality that it was like not even worth indulging. Like nobody would go to that extreme. Nobody would do that. Like there's just like, that would be so malicious and take so much time and people aren't capable of that. And I was like this naive anyway, but...

So anyway, two weeks go by with no contact. And then out of the blue, she messages me. And she's like, Dan, I'm so sorry. I need to tell you something. And she's like, my cancer came back. And when I was four years old, I had stage four, stage five, one of the serious stages of leukemia and I almost didn't make it. And she said, now it has come out of remission and.

I'm in the hospital. And keep in mind, she said that she was actually, I forgot this part, she was driving back. So she was claimed she was in Ottawa. I was in Vancouver, BC. And she claimed that she was driving back. And then that's when she went dark. And so I was expecting her to like come back and we were gonna meet in person. And then all of a sudden, boom, she's gone. And she's like, yeah, Dan, I'm in a hospital in medicine hat. And...

Yeah, I might not make it. And so my heartstrings are being pulled in every direction. This woman had left and now she's back and now she has cancer. What the fuck is going on?

Remmy Stourac (06:37)
Thank you.

Dan Freeman (06:48)
And then we just kind of returned to normal. And then we would just talk as it was and I would get home from work and we'd just chat all day. And she would, a few moments, she would be like, oh, hold on, the nurse is coming to change my bedpan.

to do whatever. And I really believed that she was in the hospital. And so I told her, like if you're not out of the hospital by this date, then I'm gonna come visit you.

Remmy Stourac (07:06)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Freeman (07:19)
feels odd. I don't think I'm laughing at a defense mechanism, but. Like it's being so like crazy. But anyway, I told her, I was like, I'm gonna come see you if you're not out by this date.

And I talked to my friends and family and they're like, totally, you should just fly out and see her. It doesn't matter what she says, like just like this girl has cancer, like go make her day. And so that date came and I bought a plane ticket. I bought some flowers and I flew to Calgary, rented a car, rented a hotel room, drove three hours south to Medicine Hut

checked into my hotel.

And...

called the hospital and I said, hey, you know, where's this person? Is this person staying? Can you put me in touch with this person? And the hotel administrator was like,

there's nobody with that name in this hospital. And I was like, no, you must be mistaken. She's there. Like, just can you check again? She's like, yeah, I checked again. There's nobody there. And then all of a sudden it all hit me and

I was like, oh my God, oh my God, this man, oh my God. Like it was just like, that was all I could utter. It was just, I was just speechless.

yeah, and then I messaged her and tried to call her and she didn't respond. And then one of her friends ended up messaging me on Amazon or Facebook or whatever. And was like, Dan, you're never gonna know who that person was?

and what the story was. So you just have to move on right now. And I like pleaded with her and she's like, no, this is it, goodbye, end of contact. And yeah, I just kind of broke down. I called my brother and I was in tears and yeah. And then I had to drive my fucking car back, take a new flight and then go tell everybody.

that I cared about that this whole thing was a sham. And it like broke my trust in so many ways. Like I didn't trust women anymore. I didn't trust myself. Like how could I be so stupid? Like the stories I was telling myself were so, yeah, sad. And then also it like hurt my trust in humanity. I didn't believe people were capable of things like this. And so it was really.

Yeah, it was really hard to recover from.

and because like I never, I was kind of an insular kid, I never had the confidence or that one person I could open up to and really kind of share about my experience. And so I just kind of bottle, bottled it up. And yeah, that just exacerbated my anxious attachment style and my struggles with communication.

And it wasn't until a few years ago where I was like, man, I really got to figure this out. And it kind of sent me on in my healing journey and kind of led me to right now, right here.

Remmy Stourac (10:27)
No doubt, man. I'm so appreciative that you share that story because there's so many unbelievably important elements too. I shared before that I can resonate with the fact that I've had some incredibly profound long distance connections and the fact that love even as an ideal can empower you to the point like, oh, I don't want to drink anymore. I'm going to go to school. Maybe this job isn't for me. And so you're like,

taking into consideration that, oh, taking care of me actually, or taking care of somebody else, helps me consider how to up myself as a human being. And like, why wouldn't anybody want that? Right? And so like the noble acts that we start to take consider and that our friends are involved in, there's a whole reality coming to fruition. And yeah, there's a certainly a heartlessness that comes with the way that it all fell apart. And how

something fundamentally like the deepest thing that everybody desires as a person could be toyed with right and to have you come around and you've had a marathon of different schooling and classes that you've now taken on to you know change the story for yourself i'd love it for you to share like yeah the marathon of like non-violent communication and the different stuff that you've come on to yeah become a new man

Dan Freeman (11:45)
Yeah, so, yeah, I tried talk therapy over the years and here and there, and it was valuable, but I remember just thinking like, there's gotta be more to this. Like, I'm just kinda sitting in this room talking about my problems. And yeah, I guess it's better than not talking about my problems, but it wasn't, I just remember thinking like, there's gotta be more to this. Like, I'm not, I don't feel like I'm healing. I'm just kinda talking about stuff.

Remmy Stourac (12:12)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Freeman (12:13)
a big catalyst was I was in a relationship and I was so anxious that I couldn't communicate. I couldn't express my needs. I was struggling with sleep. I'd wake up at four o'clock in the morning being like, oh my God, I feel so uncomfortable in this relationship, but I don't know how to express this. I don't know how to ask for what I want. Am I even allowed to ask for what I want?

Yeah, and so we had a lot of conflict and we were really disconnected and I felt very alone. And I was desperate. And so I went through my Kindle and I was like, there's gotta be a relationship or a communication book in here. And then there was this book called Nonviolent Communication. And I'd always just glossed over it because I thought, well, I'm not violent. I don't need this book. And, but I was desperate. I was like, whatever, I'll read anything. And I...

Within the first few pages, I was like, oh my God, this is a game changer. And I ended up reading it in like two days and it totally changed my life. It taught me how to be vulnerable, but also more importantly, it's like it gave me permission to be vulnerable. It was like, you know, you have feelings and you have needs. And by the way, it's okay to express them. And it sounds crazy, but that was a revelation for me. I didn't know you could say, hey, I feel nervous. Can you...

Can we have a call to connect? Or, hey, I feel alone, can you come over? Like, there was, I didn't know that was possible. Like, a man is supposed to be strong and capable and tough and doesn't, without emotional needs, needs to be stoic. And that was kind of the narrative I assumed. And this book was like, no, you can, there's another, there's a better way. And I was like, holy shit. And this spawned basically a year of.

travel and healing, where I traveled the world doing retreats in New Zealand, California, Vancouver Island, working with different coaches and trainers, teaching the world of emotional intelligence, communication, empathy, compassion, listening. And it allowed me to really unlock the parts of myself that were closed off. And it's given me so much confidence to understand who I am and communicate that to the world.

Remmy Stourac (14:31)
Yeah man, and that's another key thing that there is like a universal story among men that like you can't show that weakness because like there's got to be, there's something masculine to holding and bottling in that stuff because the attempts that we have had have either been belittled, unappreciated, and so out of proof of concept of like,

that doesn't help to do this. And so then to have a resource that kind of suddenly changes the game. And you were sharing a story with me of like the first time that you were using the rubric. I think it's like observe feel needs and request. And you kind of have like, holy shit, like maybe it's a little bit like methodical, but like I can fucking change my relationship. Right. You want to share that?

Dan Freeman (15:16)
Yeah, so in that relationship I was just talking about, we were in a text message fight, which is something I don't recommend to anyone. If you're gonna have conflicts, don't do it over text, please. If you take one thing from this episode, don't have text, don't communicate your feelings and your frustrations over text message. Lesson learned. And so I had sent her a few, we were fighting about something and I had sent her a few text messages and she wasn't responding.

And I had seen that she read them. So that was just extra triggering. And whatever I was saying wasn't working. And she was just upset and not responding. And then I was like, Oh, wait a minute, I have a new tool, new tool. And so in nonviolent communication, they say there's the formula where it's like, I observe, I feel, I need a request. And observation is a very concrete example of what is happening in this situation.

without judgment, without criticism, without my stories attached to it, without my perception of who the person is. It's not like, it's like, a bad example would be, oh, you're so insensitive, versus you haven't responded in three hours. And a lot of times when we're communicating, we're doing the first one, we're doing the judgment and thinking that we're actually communicating. But an observation is very clear.

Example of what is actually happening and it makes it forces you to get out of your story Because the story is she's so insensitive. She doesn't care about me. How could she do this? but the actual concrete what's actually happening is she hasn't responded in a few hours and That's so much different and it forces you to get out of your story And then the feeling is the feeling attached not the thought or the story attached to the moment But what is actually happening my body like do I feel tense do I feel tight?

Is this anger? Is this frustration? And then the need is the emotional need behind that. And so in that example, my need was connection or closeness.

the request is now, can you, and our request is you, you ask the person for something and it's the opposite of a demand. And a demand is you make a request or something. And then.

but there's stipulations attached to it. And so if I'm like, hey Dan, can you hang out with me on Friday? Have a tough day on Saturday, I need some help. A request, if that was an actual request, I would be okay with you saying yes or no. It's a demand if I get mad at you if you say no, or if I use passive aggressiveness or give you some sort of negative energy. And a lot of people, a lot of times people think that they're making requests, but they're actually making demands.

Remmy Stourac (17:58)
game.

Dan Freeman (18:11)
And so I had this formula and I was in this text message fight and I was like, okay, I observe. And I was like, you never respond. I was like, no, that's not an observation. I was like, I had to get really concrete. It was like, no, you haven't responded for three hours. Uh, I feel uncomfortable, nervous, anxious, and I need some connection. Could you get back to me so we can schedule a time to connect?

And then as soon as I sent that message, boom, she replied like a minute later. And she hadn't replied for hours after like four text messages before that. And I was like, holy shit, this is like, wow. Oh my God. It was like, it was so crazy to me that you could just be so clear and direct. And it ended up being just orders of magnitude different than the old way of doing things.

Remmy Stourac (19:06)
Yeah, and I think that calls for grace on the fact that we're always doing our best and we're vying for that connection, but doing it in such a way that somebody like, man, read receipts? Bane of my existence. You know? There's no case where you're like, maybe if you really got your stuff together, oh yeah, that person's busy, God bless them, but you're like, but I'm important too. You know? I would like an answer, especially if it's a vulnerable message, right?

Dan Freeman (19:19)
Hahaha

Remmy Stourac (19:33)
And so there's an element of feeling discarded when it comes to that. And so yeah, again, don't have those conversations over text. Um, but to have the humility to be like, okay, my communication may be inferior as the results are proving that they're not working out for me. And so to take a chance on, you know, a profession like nonviolent communication that has the opportunity.

to shift the caliber of relationship from a you versus me problem to an us versus problem of like, I'm seeing things in a way, can you help me reframe the way that I'm seeing this problem? And then it's not, yeah, two people fighting each other. But it's like, oh, there's an actual different way to see this problem. And then it's a, it's a bid for connection, which actually makes things even better by the end, which is incredible. But before we get like too far into that, would you be able to, as you said, a demand is kind of like,

against the actual intent of request of like allowing that person to have to the freedom to say no to you and gives them the power to like okay like I trust your ability to judge and you know Give me the proper amount of space and take care of yourself first and then consider me right, but what else would? constitute violent communication

Dan Freeman (20:47)
That's a good question. Violent communication is often with judgments and criticisms. When it's not, when I'm attacking versus explaining my experience. And it's very vulnerable to explain our internal experience. And many of us haven't had the.

environments growing up or the lessons or the educators to teach us how to do that and If we've never done that it feels so scary the this the fear of rejection from opening up is Too terrifying so we don't there's a lot of shame underneath a lot of the times and the shame is like There's there's something inside me that's broken if they see it then they're gonna know that I'm not fit for relationship I'm not lovable

and the risk is too high. If I reveal myself and they reject me, then that confirms my unworthiness and it solidifies that unbroken. And it's just too scary. And so what we often do instead is attack and criticize and judge because that is safer. And we think that we're actually communicating our internal experience by doing that, but we're not. And so nonviolent communication is like, okay, let's go inward. What's actually happening in me?

versus how am I perceiving you?

Remmy Stourac (22:16)
I love the example that if a kid is having an outrageous burst of feelings but then a parent says just like shut up just stop right the kids anger doesn't just disappear they just kind of find a way to like store it in their body and

you're like, okay, this is an unacceptable expression, but then you enter adulthood and you're like, I have these feelings anyways, but then that again, just gets stored over and over and over as an unacceptable, unlovable part of yourself. And so to then undo years and decades of what is initially you could say kind of an innocent like hey, just calm down, you're just a kid or whatever, right? But how that manifests as adulthood. But

many adults don't really understand how to communicate their needs because when something needs to live outside their body, even like my roommate as a musician, she said the coolest thing that as she's grieving or going through any sort of emotion, she creates music to help those feelings live outside of her body as an expression. I'm like, that's so incredible, right? As an art form, but when helping people understand their needs, how do you approach that?

Dan Freeman (23:33)
Yeah, so I wanna build on the example that you just gave of the kid, because that's a really important lesson. And as babies, we all come into the world with all these emotional needs, like love, belonging, connection, growth, creativity, joy, inspiration. Like, there's just, there's dozens of emotional needs and it's impossible for our caregivers to meet all of them.

And it would be nice if they were perfectly emotionally adept humans that knew how to provide proper empathy and could foster an environment where we can meet all our needs, but unfortunately they can't. And so a lot of times we have to learn how to shut down those needs. And so if I'm a sensitive kid who has a lot of need for love and connection and belonging, and my family environment doesn't provide that for me,

then I have to somehow reconcile that in my mind. And I might develop a core belief that, oh, maybe I'm just not worthy of this and therefore I need to really try and create a perfect life and get all A's and then I can be worthy. And so that core belief functions as a defense mechanism as that was forced to drive us to success and then maybe we can get love. And so we build up all these defense mechanisms.

throughout childhood and adulthood. And it's like our armor. And like you said, and then adulthood comes around and then this armor is no longer serving us. It's causing us to be sheltered, insular, alone,

reactive. And so much of the work is identifying, okay, what are our defenses and what's actually underneath? How do we get to the feelings and needs underneath?

Remmy Stourac (25:30)
Yeah, and with that it kind of involves the gnarly conversation if you want to love somebody it demands pain to be felt, right? And so hand in hand with that you kind of have to expose like what your coping mechanisms are right? We're like, well I can't keep all my bullshit and love you I kind of have to get rid of the armor which sometimes is you know alcohol or whatever your crutch may be.

Right. And so like if these needs were met, like, do you suddenly like not feel the cravings for the stuff that has kept you afloat in some way? And so would you ever? How would you approach a conversation because there's ways that it's expressed that you're not feeling something would you ever kind of pinpoint a pain point to start a conversation or Yeah, a need that if somebody can't expose their own needs, how do you help lock them into

their own needs.

Dan Freeman (26:28)
That's a good question. So needs is a very interesting concept because how we think that... So when there's conflict, usually we're fighting about strategy to meet a need. And I'll give an example. And so say I've got a thing about the dishes being put away. When I come home from work, I want the dishes to be put away. And if they're not, then I get really upset.

I come home, the dishes are still in the sink, and I get all mad at my partner. Why aren't the dishes in the sink? And then she's like, well, I'm busy, I didn't have time. And I was like, well, you know how important it is for me to do the dishes, do you not even care about me? And so we're fighting about the dishes, we're fighting about the strategies, but that's not what we're actually fighting about. There are underneath the dishes in me are some core needs.

And I actually don't care about the dishes, but this is just an example. And for me, for maybe I have a need for order. And when my environment is orderly, then I feel happy and I feel like I can get stuff done. Or maybe if the dishes are put away, it shows to me that I matter, that my partner cares about me enough to know that I matter. And so the needs underneath the dishes are order and mattering.

And if we can get to the needs, then we're having a negotiation about how to meet these needs rather than a conflict about this simple behavior.

the warm, vulnerable, connecting conversation is through the needs, not the strategies.

Remmy Stourac (28:09)
Yeah, that's fascinating and it just came into my atmosphere not too long ago that one of the ultimate forms of love is consideration. And so when you can articulate, hey, this is a tiny way of an act of service that, you know, makes this place feel like home to me, that little bit of order. So if you have five minutes, like it does more good for me than you know, right? And so all those things, it's like you can't, you know, God forbid they have a day where they miss it. And it's like, oh, do you not love me anymore? It's not the case, right?

to have all these small opportunities to have like check marks of like, man, this, this woman, this, this man is like really showing up for me, right? The same way that for even a long distance relationship, like, Oh, I'm going to take care of my own health because the best of me means I can actually get the best of somebody else too. Right. And so it's such an incredible way to do it, but you know, it's, it's pretty hard to get into a relationship and then start figuring this all out. So what the...

What kind of options would you consider people who are considering self-regulation and self-awareness on the single side?

Dan Freeman (29:14)
So how can we learn more about ourselves and how can we learn to regulate when we're single?

Remmy Stourac (29:20)
Yeah, because you know, we got to do this work by ourselves. You can't just always have somebody be like, okay, you're stuck with me while I tackle my bullshit. Please stay. Right? I would like to be able to have this arena on my own terms so I can show up and be like, Oh, look at this person really trying even when I'm not around. Right?

Dan Freeman (29:39)
That's a really good question, yeah. And so I believe that you can do so much of the work when you're single, but there's some work that you can't do until you're in relationship. And, because we're just not tested and we're not pushed, our triggers aren't activated when we're single. Like for me, being single is pretty easy. Being in relationship is where all the shit comes up. And so when I'm single,

Yeah, self discovery is big emotional regulation. Practicing to emotionally regulate is a huge skill. That's like what perhaps the most important skill in relationship is to emotionally regulate because when do we fuck everything up? It's when we're overwhelmed or when we're shut down. Like I, I can't regulate my emotions. So I get super overwhelmed and then I lash out at my partner. I act out.

I yell at them, I break something, I storm off and get drunk, or I completely emotionally shut down, withdraw, leave the situation, abandon my partner, and they feel like trash. And so, yeah, emotional regulation is one of the most important skills. And it comes down to practice. And for me, I try to put myself in really tough situations regularly.

And so that's why I do improv comedy and public speaking. And I take cold showers and cold showers is a surprisingly interesting way to practice emotional regulation because you have to, you have to face something really uncomfortable and you have to number one, you have to turn the tap on. That's really hard. And number two, you have to not get out of the water. And so you, a huge part of agency and.

Remmy Stourac (31:35)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to the next speaker. So I'm going to turn it over to the next speaker.

Dan Freeman (31:39)
taking control of your life is stepping into the uncomfortable and then not stepping out of the uncomfortable and so it tests us in two different ways and so if you can find ways to emotionally regulate put yourself in tough situations and then practice a form of acceptance and when emotions get out of hand it's because we're rejecting them in some way and so we have a choice I feel this uncomfortable thing

and I could try to get rid of it. I could check my phone. I could distract myself from my thoughts. I could turn on the TV. I could call a friend. Or I could try to rationalize it away. Or I try to believe something else that gets rid of that thought or just say no. And one of the most classic lessons in psychology is what you resist persists. And so when we do that, we're in opposition to ourself. And we're in opposition to our body. And our body's gonna win.

It might not be in that moment, but it will be later. And so emotional regulation, one of the most important skills is, can I accept what is happening in my body and just sit with it and be with it and not try to enact some sort of behavior to make it better or distract myself.

Remmy Stourac (32:53)
Absolutely, man.

And I don't care if I say this on every podcast I ever have, but I think the most pathetic problem we could possibly have is being over-abusing our comforts and our abundance is now the issue. And so the fact that we have to pursue discomfort so we can begin to have some regulation when it comes to be like, man, life is so good that the thing that's my fucking problem is cold water. You know? Fuck.

Dan Freeman (33:12)
Haha.

I have no idea. Totally.

Remmy Stourac (33:24)
As we're gonna put it that way, it's hysterical, right? And so it's like, okay, I have real problems that are relationship stuff, but when it comes down to it, the problem is that all my decades of wounds are coming up first and they are portraying a story that is not beneficial to the grand vision of like a harmonious relationship. And so there are ways, like you can take an inventory. If you wanna take something amazing from this podcast, like make an inventory of the things that make you uncomfortable.

and start rocking that list out and you would feel like a boss, you know, and it's like, okay, now I'm ready for uncomfortable conversations and to be like you're a person that I want to do difficult things with like that's pretty sexy, as far as I'm concerned. You know? Yeah, it's not like it suddenly gets easy by any means. But now to actually again, reframe to us versus problems, not you versus me. Can you speak to what an absolute game changer that is?

When you can hold somebody in their vulnerability and just like, no, it's us against a greater vision, like what's ahead of us, not just you as the problem, even though that's how it feels.

Dan Freeman (34:33)
That's a really good question. And so right now I'm trying to grow an Instagram influence. And one of my content categories is I go out on the streets of Vancouver and I interview random people. And I'm like, what makes romantic relationships so hard? And I'll just like walk up to people and I'll be like, hey, I'm doing a video for Instagram. Do you wanna talk to me?

And surprisingly two thirds of the people say yes, which I thought it was going to be like one in 10. I was totally ready to get rejection after rejection after rejection, but people are surprisingly willing to talk about this. And one of the most interesting things that I heard in one of those interviews was exactly what you said, where he's like, it's not about, it's not me versus you. It's about, we have a problem. Together we have a problem. And now it's you and I against this problem.

Remmy Stourac (35:15)
Thank you.

Dan Freeman (35:32)
And the best way I've found to get into that mindset is to take it back to a negotiation of needs. And so you have this experience and I have this experience and underneath, what is your unmet need and what is my unmet need? And let's figure out the strategies where we can come together and meet our needs together. And then that, the problem.

that we're both against is our unmet needs. And we're gonna negotiate a way where we can both get our needs met. But it requires like learning the language of needs. And it's just not intuitive, we're not taught that way. We're just, we're taught in terms of blame and judgment and criticism. If I have pain or something like that, it must be your fault and it's easier for me to attack you. And so it's largely about learning the language of needs and having a willing partner that's gonna be patient.

and is willing to go on that journey with you.

Remmy Stourac (36:31)
Yeah, one of the things that you kind of touched on there is so profound that you know, maybe it's a masculine thing But you know, I'm gonna overpower my problems whether it's cold water or you know a physical feat Whatever the case may be but when it comes to an intangible problem, especially us Individually being the problem. I can't overpower myself. I can't beat the crap out of myself, right? And so it's just avoidance altogether. And so I would love for like, you know, here's

the effort that's like working towards a good thing, but I'm also a massive advocate for having appropriate fears. And so if you could speak to how damaging self abandonment is as like, well, if you don't want to fight for good problems and have the scary conversations, you win self abandonment. And that's way worse.

Dan Freeman (37:21)
Yeah, that's an interesting point.

Yeah, and to me, self abandonment, anytime we don't stand up for our needs, we are practicing a form of self abandonment. And so if I have needs and instead I decide to subdue them and I people please instead, that's a form of self abandonment. Or every time I, if you and I are in a fight and I attack you, I am abandoning myself because I'm not actually communicating my needs.

or a lot of times we turn inward and we criticize ourselves and we're like, oh, you're so needy, you're so angry, you're so unhinged, why are you like this? And we think that somehow we think that that's helping but really that's a form of abandonment because if I criticize and attack myself, then I still don't have to be vulnerable. I just berate myself and be by myself and for some reason that can be seen as

virtuous, for lack of a better term, but really it's not. It's cowardly. It's just, it's a defense mechanism really. It's not cowardly. It's a defense mechanism we have come to, we've learned over the years to prevent us from really just accessing our vulnerability. And to me, yeah, that's a form of, one of the most severe forms of self abandonment.

Remmy Stourac (38:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I in the spirit of, you know, good conversations and having a proactive argument, let's say us versus problem, if somebody ends up attacking me takes a jab at me and it's like, okay, that means you know, you're losing the conversation if you have to redirect it to actually kind of belittle my character, because if whatever we're arguing about, you have to make me feel smaller. It's because you know, you can't handle the best version of me.

And so I like to take a step back and imagine like, oh, if I can empower this person to the ultimate version, then I'm having a great argument. But if I have to like me cap them in some way to be like, oh, but make sure that you remember that like, you're losing your hair or something like something super dumb and not even relevant, right? But like make them insecure as if like that diminishes their needs, their values and stuff like that. But to sidestep and yeah, just like take characteristic jobs.

as people do in a self-defense mechanism, which is so fascinating how you explain that.

But fundamentally, how I'm understanding this all is that we have to get out of survival mode, and so we can begin to experience thriving together, but that is really what's happening. We can be making enough money to get by, but emotionally with our needs, if we don't feel like they're basically tended to, we can't build much of a vision.

with people moving forward. Is that fair to say?

Dan Freeman (40:06)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, without our needs being met, we feel alone. And all the negative feelings, well, quote, negative feelings, all the feelings that we don't wanna feel come when our needs are not met. And so if we're in a relationship where we can't understand our needs and live in a mutually enriching way, then yeah, it's gonna be miserable.

Remmy Stourac (40:33)
And this was in a last conversation how dis-ease is not just something of a health, it's like a relationship with a lack of harmony is dis-ease. And so it comes across as things that overflow a dis-ease, dis-harmony in everything that we do. And so that self-regulation to start creating our own harmony, it's something we can welcome other people into our lives, or somebody with their harmony can kind of teach us how to do that. So it's incredible that you've done all this too.

be a vibe architect of exactly that. But as I give all my guest power to ask the future guest a question, my last guest, Gabby, wants to ask you, which you sound like you've done an incredible job of doing things that make you uncomfortable, but what are you scared of being seen trying at this point in your life?

Dan Freeman (41:23)
Hmm.

going on podcasts.

What am I scared of being seen trying?

Well, I mean, I was terrified of doing improv comedy and that was that pushed the comfort zone like nothing else where improv is basically you have two or more actors come up on stage in front of a live audience and you're not you don't have a script and you ask the audience. You say, hey, what, who am I? What is my relationship to this other actor on stage? And they're like, okay, you're a lawyer and an assistant. Okay.

And what are we doing right now? And the audience will say, oh, you're building a skateboard park in the backyard. And we'll be like, okay, well, do we have some sort of conflict? And they're like, yeah, actually you guys are ex, you guys are divorces. And then we have to create a scene in front of a live audience right then and there. And so you have to overcome your fear. You have to trust your instincts and you have to just be able to go with the flow. And it's just been an amazing thing to push that comfort zone and make me.

a lot less fearful of doing something like this or putting my name out there. And so highly recommend if anybody wants to push their comfort zone, try improv.

Remmy Stourac (42:42)
Yeah, man, that's such a fascinating thing, especially to get out of your comfort zone, because it's not that you are creating a reality to welcome people into, you're being bestowed one. And then, oh, I'm going to make it pleasant for you. Like you don't get to prep for that at all. And so to give yourself grace to screw up and not get a laugh, like the immediate, the feedback loop of not good.

Dan Freeman (42:59)
Appreciate it.

Remmy Stourac (43:08)
but then still to have enough looseness in your body to continue trying and like keep that humorous energy man that must be unbelievable that's an incredible answer.

Dan Freeman (43:17)
Yeah, totally. And to your, yeah, you said something really interesting in there where you have to be okay with whatever happens. And so you cannot rely on perfectionism because it's impossible. And so it teaches you that, you know, even if I fuck up, even if I don't say the perfect thing, I'm gonna be okay. And I don't need to be perfect. And so there's a real important lesson there for sure. I'm really glad you touched on that.

Remmy Stourac (43:42)
Yeah, and humor is like the ultimate thing. Like people can do an inspirational speech, you know, and if they get three laughs, they killed it, right? But a comedian needs like four laughs a minute, otherwise they're a failure. That's fascinating. But now I would love to give you power for my next guest. What would you like to ask them?

Dan Freeman (43:56)
Totally.

The question I'll throw out there is...

The last time you had to have a really difficult conversation, how did you summon the strength?

Remmy Stourac (44:10)
Awesome.

Sweet, let's do that man, that's a great question. That'll be the perfect amplification for whatever profession they're in. Yeah, rock that out, that's a great one man. All right, thanks dude, well, where can we find you?

Dan Freeman (44:20)
I'm sorry.

You can find me on Instagram, DanTFreeman.

Remmy Stourac (44:28)
Okay, and I appreciate you immensely. Is there any specific offerings you have in this moment with your relationship coaching or group dynamics that you're putting together?

Dan Freeman (44:41)
Nope, just find me on Instagram, click the link and you'll see what my offerings are. I help people primarily with anxious attachment and with disconnection in relationships, helping couples communicate better and rekindle the love.

Remmy Stourac (44:56)
So man, well, this was really fun. I appreciate you big time. You are overflowing with value and your humility is extremely admirable because there's so much to your story that I know. Men across the board will relate to fundamentally. So it's absolutely refreshing to hear everything you said today, man. So I appreciate you big time.

Dan Freeman (45:14)
I appreciate you too, man. I'm really glad we became friends.